in your case was there a specific killjoy that brought the subject to the atf's attention...practically begging them to act upon the matter?

if so...did your rocket hobby association/group get mad about it?

Hello Everyone,

Here is some information you might want to consider. What is the difference between a Toilet Paper grenade and a pipebomb
in terms of function? Nevermind your intended use, what is the functional difference of design? Nothing. They operate on the
same principle of using a propellant, when initiated, to expel projectiles. Now you and I can agree that beyond that, there is
certainly a difference of velocity and effect, but the principles of the "device" as the ATF likes to call them, are the same.

Then, what are the laws surrounding such devices? Let's take a look at the Federal law that governs firearms (of which a pipebomb
is one category. Take note of subsection c, d, f and i.


TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter C > § 5861
§ 5861. Prohibited acts
How Current is This?
It shall be unlawful for any person—
(a) to engage in business as a manufacturer or importer of, or dealer in, firearms without having paid the special
(occupational) tax required by section 5801 for his business or having registered as required by section 5802; or
(b) to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(c) to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or
(e) to transfer a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(f) to make a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter; or
(j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has not been registered as required by this chapter; or
(k) to receive or possess a firearm which has been imported or brought into the United States in violation of section 5844; or
(l) to make, or cause the making of, a false entry on any application, return, or record required by this chapter, knowing such entry to be false.

Now, you may ask, how does this apply to toilet paper grenades? Well, as some of you pointed out, firecrackers are legal in most
parts of Alabama outside of city limits although some counties have banned them altogether. It's not the fireworks that makes it
come under the ATFs jurisdiction. It's when you construct a device, all of the components of which are legal, into a device which
the ATF claims under Federal Statute, to be one they regulate and license. Pipebombs are regulated under this statute because the
ATF considers pipebombs to be firearms as well. What is the exact definition of a pipebomb?

(Take another note about subpart (c) which would apply to anyone assembling a device.)

Code of Federal Regulations Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

PART 479—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
Subpart B—Definitions
§ 479.11 Meaning of terms.
Destructive device.
(a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1) bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellent charge of
more than 4 ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) similar device;

(b) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun
shell which the Director finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and

(c) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as described in paragraphs
(a) and (b) of this definition and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

Furthermore, when A3 and others who have inquired with the ATF about whether a toilet paper grenade is a destructive device or not in the
eyes of the ATF, the were attempting to follow the next regulation regarding inquiries:

§ 479.24 Destructive device determination.

The Director shall determine in accordance with 26 U.S.C. 5845(f), whether a device is excluded from the definition of a destructive device.
A person who desires to obtain a determination under that provision of law for any device which he believes is not likely to be used as a
weapon shall submit a written request, in triplicate, for a ruling thereon to the Director. Each such request shall be executed under the
penalties of perjury and contain a complete and accurate description of the device, the name and address of the manufacturer or importer
thereof, the purpose of and use for which it is intended, and such photographs, diagrams, or drawings as may be necessary to enable the
Director to make his determination. The Director may require the submission to him, of a sample of such device for examination and
evaluation. If the submission of such device is impracticable, the person requesting the ruling shall so advise the Director and designate
the place where the device will be available for examination and evaluation.

In conclusion, let me say that asking a question of a Regulating Agency is prudent and responsible to insure the legal actions of
those who which to make devices for their own purposes. It's the irresponsible who would make a device without checking to see if
it is legal, or have no concern as to whether it is legal or not. Following the law or at least inquiring as the legality of an uncertain
activity is not the act of a killjoy but rather a responsible person. A killjoy is one who engages in an illegal act in an otherwise legal
sport and brings the unwanted attention of regulatory agencies. All it will take is one....just one incident from an illegal act for the
largely irresponsible newsmedia to make it into a media circus lamenting that there are no regulations to curb these "anti-government
gun nuts running around in the woods with automatic weapons and explosives practicing for a local version of Columbine."
You folks and I love this sport and we know the Press would sacrifice us on the alter of advertising revenue.

Let's be smart about what we do and be sure that what we do is legal and compliant with the law. To do less is to do a disservice to
the sport of Airsoft and our fellow airsofters.

If you want a glimpse of how seriously the ATF looks at such things, look at this case and how wide the ATF will interpret the law
to reach to an activity that it finds that it regulates:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_thomas3.txt
Nevermind the guy was actually making pipebombs. The real interest here is how the ATF will interpret the Code of Federal regulations to
address the issue especially in the footnotes where they note that the Secretary of the Treasury can regulate "Any firearm classified as a
destructive device [such as a pipe bomb] shall be identified in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe."

Respectfully,
Esquire
Auburn, AL

OK, Madrule. I think I have figured out what has cause some of your confusion. First, the deleted thread in which I plainly stated that if anyone threw one of those things at me, I would file charges for assault, is the reason that I began researching and writing the article in the first place. Next, once you initially decided to allow them at your upcoming game, I politely contacted you via PM to inform you of their illegality in an effort to look out for your best interests. I was trying to be a friend.

Then, you made this thread. As I thought was the responsible thing to do, I posted what I have learned in the course of my research. Obviously, that has made me a pariah with some of the members of this forum. As for citing my sources, I preferred not to divulge the names of my friends in the Nashville Field Office. Much of what they do is undercover work and it would be irresponsible of me to release their names in case they are involved in any ongoing investigation(s). I'm sure you can understand that. In the case of the ATF being aware of it, when I spoke with the Technical Branch, the guy I was talking to said, "Oh. These. Yeah, we know about them. They are not legal." I left it at that.

I thank Mike for locating those legal codes so quickly for me. I really suck at searching legal code. Just looking at it, my eyes glaze over. LOL

Lastly, in what way, in this thread, have I behaved badly to illicit such a venomous response? I have been nothing but honest and respectful. Please don't bother answering it in this thread, as I will no longer be checking it. If you feel like answering it, please feel free to send me a PM. Or, better yet, you can call my phone number that I provided you in an earlier PM.

With that, I bid you all adieu.

Hello Everyone,

In response to the question posed:

The U.S. Statutory law, the method by which Federal agencies derive their
power to act or regulate an activity or object, is found in the U.S. Code
of various titles. The United States Code is the codification by subject matter
of the general and permanent laws of the United States based on what is
printed in the Statutes at Large.

Parallel to the U.S. Code is the Code of Federal Regulations, which are
are enacted by the very agencies given the power to do so in the U.S. Code
without any required approval of Congress. Regulations issued by executive
branch agencies are available in the Code of Federal Regulations. These Regulations
do have the full effect of the law since the Agency itself is cloaked with
its authority granted to it by the U.S. Code, statutes passed and amended
as need by the U.S. Congress. The U.S. Code does not include regulations issued
by executive branch agencies, decisions of the Federal courts, treaties, or laws
enacted by State or local governments.

In essence, the U.S. Code contains your criminal law, penalties, and other
limitations or grants of power to Agencies or actions of the United States Government.
The Code are the laws passed by the U.S. Congress.

Parallel to the U.S. Code are the regulations published by Agencies of the
Executive Branch that deal with how the object of the regulation is to be
regulated.

The BATF, in our present matter, issued regulations on Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms. These regulations must adhere and not conflict with the the
U.S. Code passed by Congress. It may also issues monetary fines for
breaking regulations. The U.S. Code on the other hand, defines criminal
acts and the penalties.

In my earlier post, I quoted both Code and the CFR since they both operate
side by side when, as someone once said, "the man comes knocking at your door."
Usually, violation of either gets you a two-for-one special in Federal Court with
6 of your most interesting fellow citizens and a frowning adjudicator in robes.

Respectfully,
Esquire
Auburn, AL